Soooooo, forgo the $2,000 bonus because of the towns finances but negotiate an additional $3,000 to be paid at retirement? Not sure how that's not a wash... I know quite a few WPS teachers who didn't get the (less than) $3,000 step they should have last year

I have heard of a dozen veteran WPS teachers looking for jobs elsewhere this spring because of the now huge disparity between pay here and in neighboring towns... True teachers here took one for the team last year but some of our best talent now has one foot out the door, if you ask Superintendent Olsen he is willing to admit that we lost several quality experienced teachers last summer and knows of many more now looking to leave. Both unfortunate and avoidable!

If a teacher was offered a job in a neighboring town for as much as $8,000 more per year how did the School Committee think we wouldn't loose many of our most 'marketable'?
They knew there aren't enough jobs around for everyone to exodus in one year but it will be a consistent attrition, doesn't mean the new replacements will be bad but there are virtues in any field that come with 'breaking in' new personnel to a new place even if they have done the job elsewhere before. Get what you pay for is what WPS will learn

Totally delusional posts by Townie, Johnson and M Conell. Talk is cheap. Walk the talk.
Remember that you start at the bottom in seniority and reset the clock on the one year sabbatical that requires 7 years in the system.
Cry me a river!!!!! Experience what the workers in industry have been experiencing for the last 7 years.

Jesse, Your post violates the Patch terms of service agreement by name calling against those viewpoints you disagree with (delusional posts) Please be RESPECTFUL of divergent views. Talk about issues and not other posters please as Andrew has said 1001 times. Override is going to get pushed and pushed hard and could easily squeak through. Then everyone antes up more nickles and dimes 'workers in industry' can take a hike easy to outsource them is the reality but not public workers Apples and Oranges Apples and Oranges

WPS are repeatably told they are 'valued' and 'appreciated' by School Administration then are offered a contract far below competitive with comparable towns with the message 'go to court and risk taking even less'
Yes Jesse my cowboy friend, You are so right, TALK IS CHEAP!

Perhaps the message can be translated for me in my native ( not to mention soon to be dominant language US language) SPANISH for me? ¿entiende lo que le digo?

To quote the great Puff Daddy 'we aint, goin nowhere, we aint going no where.."

Hindus and Pakistani, much less many Chinese don't speak Mandarin you silly rabbit!

Love it or leave it sums it up nicely, either love it or get out, no working for change around these parts. You get what you get and you dont get upset like the moms used to say. BANG FOR THE BUCK is the motto around these parts NOT pay fair market value dont ya know? These are tight tough times all around and our town officials havent exactly been prudent with our coin recently if ya know what I mean? Simpler to just label these radical agitating teachers as winy greedy detached from reality than take a long hard look at where the money we should have has gone, catch my drift? Too much work.
Take a look at all the extras they get out of teachers down in CUBA for example and then this WEA bunch will think they never had it so good. Perhaps Olsen will pull a Castro maneuver on this bunch and suppress dissent , Lets focus on our core values time already!

None of your numbers nor your math is correct. Just to point out some of the errors:

They contribute 30-35% towards health insurance depending on the plan. More than most towns.

You don't understand what the term "Fair Market Value" means. Since people who perform the same job in the same geographical area with similar results average between $7-20K more this would be Fair Market Value.

Nobody makes $80k after 11 years. I don't know where you came up with that. There is no overtime, holiday pay, bonuse. They would either be working summer school or taking on department head or coordinator positions.

After 14 years with a Masters you can make $74,089 in 2014. Provided the S.C. follows through with their end of the deal. Compare this to the Police or Fire Dept which reaches a higher top pay in 8 years, with less education requirements.

The only way you can make $80k would be next year, to have you masters degree, + 30 extra credits, 14 years and you would approach/break $80K with longevity pay factored in. It's sort of an extra degree or level of degree. It's an M.E.d/Professional Studies and approaching PHD territory soon.

If they worked 990 hours a year the town would pay them hourly, so that is obviously false. There is a reason they are paid salary. Think about it.

I think a perfect topic to cover at today's "solidarity" protest should be the continuous arrows/digs lobbed at the Police/Fire unions ("reaches a higher top pay in 8 years, with less education requirements").

Think about that!

I'm the one who gave you that lesson.

You would also have to take most of my words out of context as I have stated several times that I have no problem paying either group what they get paid. Because they both do jobs that I would not want to do (as well as teachers) I appreciate their hard work and am more than happy to pay them what they get paid. I would hardly call that an arrow/dig.

But the rest of what you said is fact. They reach a higher top pay in almost half the time with less education.. Can you explain why that's fair?

Can you explain why when people were expected to forego expected step raises that the school committee pained the picture of the teacher being the ones who weran't board. The implication is that they were being selfish. But now you see that is not the same thing at all.

I would love to have gotten the info but I couldn't. but of approx 360 full time teachers, relatively few were at full step so withholding steps for them really had no effect at all. But most teachers were in that 14 year windows.

Since the race to top pay is so much shorter for FF, Police, Office workers (max out in 5 years) I wanted to know how many of them were already at top step because the step holding would have no effect so "being willing to sacrafice" is a little different for them.

This is the kind of real world info that would help us to understand situations, but people want to keep it in the dark as it's easier to get people to infer motive.

Vincent

" You cannot cry boo hoo we only got $50 million and throw the arrows/digs. When TAX PAYERS say anything about getting the school dept $ under control they are chased with "they do not appreciate teachers""

If you listened to anything I've stated during my time here what I've been saying is that your school budget IS under control. There is no more money to suck out of it. I offered earlier to send you spreadsheets of comparable towns wiith lots of information proving that Westford spends as much as 30% less than other school districts with similar enrollment. What more do you want from them?

Oh yes, you want them to forego step raises for two years, & now you want them to accept a ridiculously low rent health insurance plan.

This is called logic Vincent. That procession of thoughts I just presented, shows that people who wanted the teachers to forego steps, did not appreciate all the hard work and sacrafice they were already giving.

On the other hand, I've said that I do appreciate the work FF, Police etc have done & have no problem paying them what they are supposed to be paid. I have said that from the beginning.

Do you see the difference?

YOU want the teachers, police, FF to give up their money. You don't appreciate their work.

I want them to keep their steps. The budget problems are not caused by those groups. I appreciate them and show it by supporting them getting their scheduled increases. I appreciate them..get it?

So I addressed your concerns and questions. Now would you please go back and address mine? I asked you a couple simple questions that you won't answer.

Why do Police, FF, etc max out in 8 years? Office workers max out in 5? Yet they have a lower education requirement?

Why did the S.C. mispresent the situation by saying the teachers were not willing to give up the same thing all the other unions were? It's clearly not the case.

And if you feel like some "extra credit" points: Do you see how this could make the teachers feel unappreciated, having the SCHOOL COMMITTEE, who is fully aware of the details, intentionally paint the teachers in a bad light for all the public to see? Do you see how the office workers, police and FF situation was different?

The shame of this shouting match is precisely why we need to privatize the school system. The taxpayers are justified in feeling angry that every year they are being asked to either forgo more of their hard earned money/retirement, or deal with a curtailment of services. The teachers (and enter public sector employees here) are rightly justified that they want their due and want the school to have all the bells and whistles. So a paradigm is formed, one where one side is screaming, "Stop taking our money," and the other screaming, "Don't short change our jobs," and in the end these are all our neighbors. We shop at the same stores, eat at the same restaurants, send our kids to the same soccer fields and root for the same teams. We're supposed to be neighbors, but this perennial negotiation pits neighbor against neighbor. It's time to sever the link that separates us and bring us together. Privatize the schools, people with kids pay for a service just like any other. people w/o kids don't have to leave Westford to save on taxes. No more arguments, no more fights, just competition, free market principals applied to education, and a new paradigm for others towns to model or envy. I've never heard two people get into a fight because one has Verizon and one has Sprint.

Don't worry about the yelling Steven, that is what it takes at times to get through to Vincent.

BUT YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT AND PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS MOMENT AND THE REASONS WHY!

The teachers and schools are damn cheap, ridiculously so. The town needs to stop trying to soak money from them in any way shape or form. They should be damn happy with what they have, But at every turn it's like they want something more from the teachers. It's destroying them.

Westford's tax burden is already really, really high. You have neighboring or equivalent towns spending $20 million more just in school systems alone nevermind other town things and they don't take in the money that you do. You shouldn't keep needing these prop 2.5 overrides to make things work. It's a district that takes in a lot of money, whose main governmental agencies (excluding admiin) (but including police, FF, Schools) run very efficiently.

So, the question I've been trying to get everyone to ask and then answer is why can't they do it? Where is all the money they are saving being blown that they are broke? You might be interested in the spreadsheets I've created, it illustrates very well with real towns just how good a situation Westford is in. The town has some explaining to do but they no one is asking them the questions.

You want to solve W's problems (privatizing isn't the answer) find where the money is going.

Alex:
I agree the trail of the money is the answer to where the waste is going. However, those asking for the taxes to stay frozen are not suggesting the teachers, the firemen, the police , the DPW or the other myriad of public workers are to blame. We all respect your work. I hope to join you someday as a math teacher. But, the system is broken. The funding has to come from a different source, because the same source (govt.) that cannot balance the budget, cannot run the T, cannot run the PO, cannot run Amtrak, cannot fund SS, Medicare, obamacare, veterans benefits, etc. is the source of the funding you require. If you could switch your source, you would have better luck. I know, it's hard, you've been taught by your union masters that there is only one antiquated way, but there is a different and better way and that is privatization.
We give you children of well educated parents, that have tutors, money for books, extracurricular activities, and an ethos of hard work and exceptionalism. Every study I've seen has proven that demographics, more than money, determine the health of a school. So you'll still be given these great kids, but w/o the bureaucracy and superintendent. You'll be a private business with responsibility to your customers, and you'll earn more without the hassles of trying to get rid of an inferior superior, or an inferior student. It's a win-win.

Steven: what happens when you have an "inferior student" and none of the private schools are willing to take her/him? How does the privatization option allow for the education of autistic or other developmentally delayed students if the schools are now private and don't want to take them on?

Steven,
I'm glad we can finally talk about something relevant.I hear what you are saying about those asking for the taxes to stay frozen aren't suggesting the public workers are to blame. But that was the attitude rampant here & on other Westford forums when it happened.

By continuously asking for those groups to make sacrafices in order to solve the problem the blame get's assigned there in peoples mind. And these are the areas where the discussion gets pointed, the comparisons start . If people were blaming the BOS,/SC people would be talking about & asking those people, but they don't.

I think we crossed wires somewhere, I'm just good with math. I'm not a teacher. Private sector business owner here.

Privatizing is a long term problem, not a short term one. That subject is far to lengthy to even begin there. A large reason, in a nutshell is that there are certain aspects of culture that need to remain free of profiteering. The justice system is one I can think of off the top of my head. SCJ's are elected for life so they are free to rule by the law w/o fear of reprisal via elections or sponsors. Jails have been mostly privatized & it's effects are further reaching than anyone imagined.

Turning kids education into a profit commodity opens a lot of doors that just shouldn't be opened.

We are doing ok the way we are, let's just get town residents to finally stick up for themselves and say we want to know what you are doing with our money!

As far as I'm concerned, until this governing body gets it's head on straight a prop 2.5 override is just as offensive as withholding promised step raises from the work force. Teachers aren't going to take it anymore, hopefully the town is close too, as it seems like an explosion at this point is the only thing that is going to make people wake up and take notice.

You bring up some valid points.

I think a large part of the reason privatized schools work now is because there is choice. But I think if you eliminated the govt, & just had private companies competing for the business like Comcast & charter every couple years or worse competing without town contracts free to set up shop anywhere any time they want things are going to suffer in the name of getting business. Its not like a restaurant that doesn't do well & just shuts down, then you just find a new place to eat. If that happens with schools what are you going to do with your kids mid year? The landscape changes when you are the only gig in town, or in this scenario the only type of gig. You need public schools for that IMO, and IMO we need private schools as well.

There is also the problem Amber Brown brought up about special needs kids. If Olsen was right in his comments they average $100k to educate (average) so what do the parents do that have a child like that? Even if they are not average and they only cost $50k a year that's a lot. But what about the kids with severe autism that cost closer to $200k a year? Plus now you have only parents paying for their kids to go to school. Im going to look it up, but I think private schools get paid money public money for each child. Money that comes from the pockets of 40% of tax payers like myself who have no kids. If that was eliminated the cost to send your kids to private school would increase by at least $10k a year.

You need that huge pool of money to average out those special needs kids of which there are more and more everyday. What is it now, like 1/100 kids is born with Autism? I don't mind paying so much in taxes for schools I don't use because for the parents with 4 kids, they couldn't afford to educate their kids, or special needs kids. I don't mind paying "family" insurance rates even though its just me and my wife, as it would be impossible for families to afford it otherwise. But you take systems like that away, I think costs are to great for the family to pay for and I think the efforts to lower those costs would be disastrous.

It's a solid idea though, who knows maybe in 10 years time it will dawn on us what the missing piece was and it will all come together. For right now, I think Westford residents tracking down their dollar and seeing just how inexpensive their schools are is they eye opener they need to start sniffing down the real problem and solution.

Alex: most recent CDC stats are 1 in 88 for ASDs.

Alex the school system consumes 70% of the towns budget (throwing in retirement and benefits). Does that sound inexpensive?

Last I checked, the cost of a specialized autism school like NECC was running $100k per year. And I still have two other kids to fund, also.

Which means schools can cherry-pick students and reject the non-superior performing students. So where do the C students go to get educated? The C School? The businesses want to be high performing to stay in business, so what's the incentive to take average or sub-par students ( who also need an education, unless they're in AZ where many of them matriculate straight to prison).

I get what you're saying, I just think it's good in theory but potentially full of holes in practice, unless you have some protective regulations in place.

Patrick Henry: I invite you to come meet Matt anytime, and tell me he's misdiagnosed or over diagnosed. Until then, the smarmy comments about ASD diagnoses are sheer ignorance on your part.

Here is the links that includes state appropriations etc. As regards insurance, pension etc cost per child
W = 35/339
overall expenditures
W = 52/339

There is 352 total school districts why 339 are only listed I don't know but that makes Westford in the bottom 15% as far as school system cost.

There are only 51 School Districst in the entire state that are cheaper. Most of them aren't separated by much. Many of them are lower because they are so small (smaller = easier to manage)

Only 34 in the entire state that would cost you less in retirement, insurance and pensions, cheapest 10% in the state.

All these numbers are on balance, meaning proportionate to the school enrollment, no trick statistics. Your schools are quantifiably very inexpensive. You can't just pick a random number out of the air to compare it to and say "Does that look cheap?"

Lets compare it to the rest of the state, and wow, it is cheap. Cheapest 10% on the tax payers for insurance, pension etc. Cheapest 15% with the whole ball of wax.

What more do you want? (Oh, that's right, they want it cheaper, while maintaining elite status)

http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/ppx.aspx

Do all these towns charge for busing or is that included in their school budget? Do all these towns charge for sports? You can argue all you want. Westford schools have enough money. The problem is how it's spent.

Sam, the answers to almost all of those questions are right here. Why don't you do some work to help figure this problem out...

https://www.google.com

And that's not how "arguing" works. I proved to you that they are amongst the cheapest schools. Either disprove it by looking up the answers to your own questions or lose the argument. "I don't care what you say" or "you can argue all you want" replies just show that a person is unwillng to to look at something with an open mind. That's not how problems get solved, that's how children get put in the corner.

Again if people are unhappy in their jobs or unhappy with their bosses you have a choice to make. When you listen to most teachers on this blog their anger is beyond belief. How can they go to work every day feeling like that? I would say go get a job in Franklin and after a year or so write to us here on the blog and let us know how that is working for you. If the "elite" status as you put it starts to erode, then the town will make adjustments.

On Franklin's website their 2012 per pupil spending is listed at $11,108. Is your list correct or the town's?

What teachers blogs are you reading? Please link me to them, I'd like to read them.

If you read my post you can figure out that answer for yourself. Do some thinking and work on your own.

Read past posts. Do some thinking you can figure that out.

Also, here...

http://www.westfordk12.us/pages/Budget/index

Don't want you to go into battle empty handed. We all await your findings.

You were the one that listed a towns per pupil cost. I went to the first on the list and it directly contradicted the number you listed. My question to you is how do we believe your list of numbers when the first one was off by over a $1000 per pupil?

I am not going to battle, you are!

@VINNY D, you always garb and shout drive by on the hard drugs at WA comments. Why don't you contact WA safety officer Detective Justin Agraz and ask what motherload of hard narcotics where discovered on students at WA this week then report back

So more of the same mantra, bury the head in the sand. Ok. Ill play along, Not a single hard drug found being dealt at WA this week that's for sure then! Safe and comfortable!

Did you (camera in hand as stated) DRIVE BY the town hall yesterday afternoon? Quite a sight! Glad I don't live in a town where teachers but especially police and firefighters are given such ample reason to have huge growing chips on their shoulders!

It must have been quite a sight for the unemployed and school children.

There is another large group massed at town hall to have their presence felt at tonight's BOS meeting (no word yet on the reaction from the unemployed school children)

I listened to the talk in front of the BOS, heard the whole statement (but did not hear the talk before that; something about a 1.3 million rule or plan being removed?).

I recall this from the statement:
- TM says the town employees are the best
- town employees have forgone step increases
- town employees may have to change medical plans and they don't like it
- town employees feel they will only be allowed to choose a medical plan based on what they can afford (not based on medical needs)

Response: I/many have been living this for years; for me over the past 4 - 6 years:
- moved from an HMO (paid 0 $s for 3 kids; lucky me) to a PPO (the plan that I can afford)
- moved from a pension plan to a 401K
- went a year or 2 without a raise
- survived many positions being moved to lower cost areas of the world
- did not toss around accusations about my bosses due to this
- did not toss around accusations about my customers due to this
- continued to do my job to the best of my ability
- I am at a large employer so I bet I have it better than some (and I am grateful for that)

And why is that?

Dwier - "Your numbers are off..That might be why your list based on 2011 numbers is off."

They're off because I adapted them to a spreadsheet.I can send you the spreadsheet if you want legalcontractsMA@gmail.com. I explained clearly that enrollments were from 2011, but budgets were most recent. I deleted the post due to confusion, but left my 2011 EXACT numbers up. I posted those a couple hours before you came on. To rebut the implication that W schools are expensive. 2011 numbers:
Insurance, pension etc cost per child
W = 35/339 Top 10%
overall expenditures
W = 52/339 Top 15%
There are 352 school districts, not all report ever year. Dont know why. Now that I have 2012 how does W fair in the same categories: Insurance, pension/overall
W= 44/326 Top 14%
Total Expenditure
W=45/326 Top 14%

This is using only reporting schools & rounding up generously. W actually gained 7 spots on oeverall expenditure. There are now only 44 schools in the state that are cheaper & some of them do so because they are small, others are marginally cheaper. But Westford is also one of the top districts in the state.

CH/70 is a whole other topic that I would love to talk about. In the scope of your argument it makes no sense. At it's core it's a govt subsidy for district shortfall.
So 1. What is your point?
& 2. Why does W not make better use of it?

I've studied Ch70 inside & out so I'd welcome a debate about it. But I don't see what it has to do with "per pupil spending."

Dweir-"Also, you need to look at results. Many communities that pay their teachers more do not perform as well as Westford on standardized tests, college placements, drop out rates, and other quality metrics."

Yeah, Lowell, Boston, any place that has "combat" pay. Such places need to pay what they do in order to get people to do the job

Dweir-"One could argue that Westford is making wise spending decisions based on the results it gets for the money spent."

Really? Why all the budget problems and P2.5 over rides needed?

I would argue that the SC renegging on a contract & stiffing teachers of their approved raises is bad for morale. They were getting good results w/the money spent, & then they decided just to "stop" paying them as agreed. Teachers are not robots & are affected by stunts like this & misinformation spread about them during the process.

Dweir-"It could pay teachers more by eliminating spending in other areas. Would the teachers agree to be held to the same performance standards?"

Finally someone who sees the truth. Eliminate the superfluous spending and pay your teachers as you agreed on. I don't know what you mean "Would the teachers ...held to the same performance standard" They are already thrifty w/your dollar, pay all of their retirement contributions for a long time, Insurance split as low as the lowest competitors. Much money could be saved by the S.C sticking w/ a curriculum instead of constantly buying new ones.

Dweir-"Should that folly [mandated masters degrees] of our liberal legislature be evermore the rationale for salary? Absolutely not."

How do you figure? Why are future generations going to teach in MA? It's already one of the worse financial degrees/careers you can pick.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2011/06/06/the-best-and-worst-masters-degrees-for-jobs/

If the pay is not commmensurate with the job career choices will flow in another direction. Then in order to get teachers back in MA guess what you have to do. Pay them more.

Dweir-"If private school teacher salaries were added to the mix, we might learn that public school teachers are highly paid in comparison."

Or you might not. Those numbers difficult to attain, but you are comparing Apples to Oranges. Private schools don't have anywhere near the same amount of assessments, not legally required to have same number of school days, don't have to have a masters (pretty sure on that one) Have more leeway with the curriculum, typically smaller class sizes, less beurocracy, less likelyhood of dealing with so mnay parents who just don't care etc.

Dweir-"We would see that public school teachers salaries outpace even the dreaded private sector."

Show me. You have to factor in hours worked, vacation time, holidays, OT, pay scale, job stress, schedule et al. I haven't seen any studies or comparisons that put school teachers as even being equal to other Masters degrees.

Dweir-".And that's just salaries. We're not even talking about benefits."

Benefits do not work out the way you think they do. Something you said seemed to inidicate you were a former teacher so you will probably understand all this more so than most.

I'd like to see your research that says that private sector is inferior here in Massachusetts.

First Insurance, W teachers have a 65/35% split. My last private sector job I paid 0%. This split has not changed for W teachers for at least 3 contracts from what I can see. Private sector in MA for the last 6 years or so up to 2010. There are some variables that information like this doesn't reveal like quality of insurance, but judging by the average cost the insurance seems pretty good. Many other school districts enjoy a 75/25 split, 80.20, and I've seen as high as 90/10. Not so in W.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/health-insurance-premiums.aspx

Retirement.

In MA teachers contribute the entire 11% of the required pension contribution and have for many years. Many other states or municipalities are just catching up with this. As of recently, many were contributing a portion for the teachers. In Chicago they were striking because among other things the city wanted the teachers to start contributing more to the pension fund as the city was covering most of the contributions. Not so here in MA. MA teachers are also not elligible for Social Security (SS)...

so all contributions made in their previous jobs are lost in the pool for SS workers. Also, SS workers pay 6.2% towards their SS fund. The employer pays the additional 6.2% FOR you.

People in the SS system who complain take 4.8% of your gross wages & put it in a 401k for your entire career. You would retire much closer to what a teacher does, at the same cost. If you were a white collar professional with a Masters Degree, often times 401k money has a match percentage, more free money for you. MA teachers get none of that. Yes they get to retire earlier if they wanted to, but most don't retire at 50 like people claim. They usually stick it out till their mid 60's.

They also can't leave & start over in Social Security again, they don't have enough time to build a retirement. Upon retirement, you can only take SS or pension, not both.

Many places, teachers get pension & SS, towns contribute a portion of pension contributions, the insurance split is very good. None of that is the case here.

A beginning teacher w/considerable student loan debt, next year (steps back in effect) will start at $42,4445, $4669 will be taken out right away leaving $37,776. After medicare $37,131. After taxes take home pay is @ $536 a week. If they had a family after taxes & insurance pay would be @ $400 a week.

Read these:

http://www.massbudget.org/report_window.php?loc=Compensation_3_11.html

http://georgetown.massteacher.org/Pension%20FAQ.pdf

Dweir-"I don't believe teachers should have been held at steps. The impact was felt most by those at the start of their careers, who are paying student loans, graduate tuition, etc.. It would have been better to honor steps and just carryover the current schedule one year. But even that would have required restructuring the school budget, and you need a majority of 4 on the board to get that done."

Not true. The steps were included in the approved budget. They just chose to not give them. See how shady this was now?

Dweir-"For many years there have been very large raises built into the contract that had steps plus schedule adjustments. I'm talking double-digit raises. That is difficult to budget year to year, and the department always seemed to count on a fair number of retirements to keep the overall impact somewhat manageable. Still, even a 5-6% salary line item increase outpaces growth."

Can you show me these double digit raises? I have the last 3 contracts if you need them to look through legalcontractsMA@gmail.com

But these aren't raises. I showed you above what a new teacher will be making with the college debt (hopefully no family) Plus they have to continue their education. Who is going to get a masters degree to make $37K a year. It's an investment that doesn't pay off for 10-20 years. That's why holding the teachers at step is as egregious as it is. A lot of people talk about it like all the unions gave up the steps, therefore it's all the same.

Let's compare some things.

Teacher 2014 starting pay $42,445,
Police - $44,964,
Fire - $43,365,
Office workers $46,820

Years to get to top pay:
Teachers - 14,
Police - 8 (was previously 5),
FF - 8 (was previously 4)
Office workers - 6

Holidays/Holiday Pay:
Teachers - No,
Police - Yes
FF - Yes
Office workers - Yes

Longevity pay starts at
Teachers - 14 years
Police - 5
FF - 5
Office Workers - 5

Hours per work week before O/T:
Teachers - Unlimited
Police - 37.5
FF 42 avg
Office Workers 37.5

Overtime:
Teachers - none,
Police - time and a half for hours over 37.5, time and a half for 3 unworked holidays, New Years, ThanksGiving, Christmas call into work is time and half & 4 hour minimum Court time - time and a half and 4 hour minimum, details have minimums, sometimes double time, shift differentials
FF, call back = 3 hour minimum, over 42 hr per 8 weak avg = Time and a half, double time etc,
Office workers OT = time and a half over 37.5 hours, Sundays = double time

Accrue Vacation Time:
Teachers - No
Police - Yes
FF -Yes
Office Workers - Yes

It just goes on. Other groups can take company vehicles to any training, they accrue personal days, sick days, bereavement etc, at times faster than teachers. Ciothing stipends, take company cars to and from work, Also, except for office workers as I don't have their figures, top pay employees earn more than a teacher who is Masters + 30.

Anyone looking at Teachers steps as unearned raises is miinformed. They start making lower, have higher education requirements than the other jobs, work more hours than Fire Fighters, yet their pay is stretched out over almost double the time.

Why? Anyone care to explain to my why everyone else tops out in 8 years? Same insurance, same pension system, yet teachers have to continue schooling and wait 6 additional years. Longevity pay they wait 9 additional years. No overtime, no holidays, no set schedule, they work all hours. On top of all that, here in Westford, they do it extremely well and extremely cheaply.

The above is not to pick on any of the other unions or say I they get more than they deserve. I support all town departments and thing what the town did was egregious. I think the cops, FF etc get everything they deserve. The comparison is merely to draw contrasts to what teachers are expected to "take" vs what other people get. In fact, if you are one of the other groups I mentioned and you have any info you would like written about, email it to me Alex Finnegan legalcontractsMA@gmail.com

In the meantime the idea that your teachers are overpaid or your schools are too expensive is demonstrably untrue. We can start the office worker at $44,000 a year and top them off in 8 years but teachers don't deserve that? or the steps they were promised? Gimme a break.

I would STILL like to hear from SC Angela Harkness on how (as promised last year) she has 'done all she can' to rebuild trust and morale between teachers and the town because all I see is a bad situation getting worse and maybe its time she breaks out the magic cure all coolaid for us all to sip!
If you say publicly you are going to so something doesnt it stand to reason....

Steven,

That's your answer as to why all that is appropriate? Ok, once again...

I've broken it down before and teachers work an average of 7 weeks less than the average professional. They do not get paid holidays off. is my point. Teachers have to work 184 days a year no matter what. Snow days don't count, vacation days don't count. (personal and sick obviously do) All those other groups, if worked M-F work 260 days a year, but all these other days they have count as work days. They either get paid for them and they count as a day worked, or if they work them they get Holiday pay.

So mnus holidays = 247, minus vacation time is 3 weeks to start usually in a professional job, thats 232. Once they reach 5 weeks (ironically usually around the time teacher hits top pay it's 222. 222-184 = 38 This does not count all the days teachers go in on days "off" I don't know a single teacher who doesn't go in on off days at the end of summer or during every vacation. Who do people thing decorates the classroom, prepares the names, on things etc.

Also, I can compare the salaries by the figures to prove how ridiculous it is. FF work less hours than Teachers. FAR LESS, yet they start at higher pay, and hit the top twice as fast. They are also getting paid to sleep and exercise.

None of those jobs have the education requirements teachers do.

If you problem is with the hours worked do the math, then explain to me why it's fair.

Steven said "2nd, cops and firefighters work 24/7 shifts. A cop may work graveyard, a firefighter may be on call for days on end, teachers generally work 8-4 , M-F, and while they may grade papers at night,"

Read the contracts, I can email them to you. You are very misinformed.

They get paid for shift differentials, OT pay, mimimum call in OT, for any hours worked above 37.5 or 42.

A FF on call for overtime is the same as a teacher having to do 3 hours of work when they get home? So the possibility of work is just as much work as actual work?

You don't know any teachers. But teachers work nights and weekends as well, constantly. But it's different because of the kind of work it is right? Dealing with overly concerned parents via email at 6 pm does not qualify as overtime in your opinion. Classroom prep, correcting papers, lesson plans, behavior charts, parental updates etc doesn't qualify as work in your opinion. It's a white collar job vs a blue collar job. Time spent is time spent.

My point is that FF, Police and Office workers are paid for every hour worked that is beyond 37.5 or 42. I'll use FF

They work one 24 hour shift (during which they sleep) have two days off, one 24 hour shift, then 4 days off. Add those hours up and compare it to teachers. Keep in mind they also have personal days, accrue vacation time, paid holidays etc.

Call back, it's a minimum of 3 hours at time and a half. Any ot is time and a half.

My point is I compared base pay. Teachers pay is final. You mentioned all these other things Police & Fire have to do. But they get paid for it, every hour.

Teachers do not. That's why at top pay often Police & FF make more money than a top paid teacher. All extras are time & a half or better. Teachers, all extras no matter how time consuming are unpaid. The office worker working more than 37.5 hours, it's overtime. The office workers are valued more than teachers.

Steven said "3rd, a teacher is not being asked to break up robberies & take down meth labs, nor run into a burning building."

That's good b/c they haven't been trained for it. So in those situations job details justify higher pay? Couldn't we offer lower pay & they just take it or leave it?

Also ths is Westford, not Compton. Not a lot of "Breaking Bad" going on here. Do you read the police logs?

I know 5 firefighters. Some on the job for over 30 years. None have ever felt like their life was on the line. You need to stop watching so many movies.

You didn't address why it makes sense that office workers start at higher pay.

With teachers the education requirements, all the after hour work, dealing with the difficult kids & their parents is not respected. You might not realize it, but that is how what you just said comes across to teachers. I know you didn't mean it, but you're subtly implying that what police & FF do is dangerous, therefore respectable. What teachers do is not.

Alex:
You seem to be hung up on "it's not fair." And I'm sorry, but life isn't fair. It's not fair baseball players make millions for playing a game while our soldiers in Afghanistan don't. I could give a thousand permutations for why life isn't fair, but I don't think it will help you. You seem to have created this analogy between all the public sector workers as if each are equal and demand equal pay or compensation.
I don't know when it was 1st decided teaching would be a salaried position, but it is. Knowing how the teacher's union is so powerful, you would think if it worked out better for teachers to go to an hourly rate, they'd be fighting for it, but I have never heard them try and convert it, so it must be working out for teachers to be salaried. But then you can't complain that a salaried worker is making less than a hourly one. I guess it must be nice in August to get a check? I guess.
And maybe this isn't Compton, but everyone has to train as if it were, so training begets higher pay. Who was that kid in Sudbury that wanted to fly model plains into DC buildings? And Sandy Hook looks a lot like Westford so I'm hoping WPD has done extensive anti-terrorist and lockdown training even if we'll hopefully never use it.

Steven said "And just so you know, I'm planning on being a teacher someday"

A public school teacher? I don't mean to sound confrontational but I don't believe you. You've shown that you know little about teaching. I suggest friend a teacher & take the time to learn the the job, there is a lot to it that you are blind to at the moment.

Steven said "so I don't hate teachers, or teaching, but comparing 1st responders to teachers is not a fair comparison."

You forgot office workers, but why is it not fair?

You have a "Hollywood" view of what their jobs are like. They are higher risk but someone like myself would prefer that. I'd sooner be a cop or FF over a teacher b/c the job is exciting.

I have seen up close and personal what all 3 do. More so than most people on this forum save a cop, FF, or teacher. Not bragging, that's the truth. I have close friends who do all of these jobs. Tteaching pays the worst, get's no respect, endlessly misrepresented (# of days & hours worked), high education requirements, Salary, not hourly etc. All the cops & FF I know AGREE that teaching is the worst job of the 3 & would not trade.

Now including office workers, why is teaching the lowest starting pay? Why do the other jobs reach top pay in 8 years? They all have 8 years experience at that point, but one has a Masters degree as well? Explain that.

Up until recently all got to top pay in 4-5 years, while teachers are dragged out to 14!

Alex:
I never served my country in uniform. When I graduated HS there was no war and my parents' dream was for me to go to college. But I always wanted to serve so I'm finishing up my BS in Math at UMass. When I get certified I'm going to teach in the inner city trying to reshape the test scores and give back to a society that has given me so much by helping those who quite frankly, haven't. Speaking of danger, since it's a rough job, they pay more AND they waive the master's degree requirement and extend it indefinitely as so long as you're working on it. But that's me, you can believe me or not, I don't care.
I didn't forget office workers I wrote a separate post since I'm a "Tolstoy." As for why they move up the chain faster is because there are more positions to leap in a business and businesses try to promote every 2-3 years for stability and resource protection. How many position jumps in a school? 4? Teacher aid, teacher, coordinator, administrator? You want more movement? Create more diversity in the educational paradigm.
I realize cops and FF spend 99% of their time waiting for something horrible to happen, but they get paid for the 1%. I don't know why you can't see that, or why you are in this contest to see who has the heavier cross, but there it is and here you are actually trying to convince us all that teachers have it worse than cops and that those guns they carry are just for decoration, it has no proportional realtion to danger or anything.

So why do they start lower & stretched over 14 years?
Here's what you have to work around

1.They have the most education.
2.They don't work the fewest hours, even if you believe the M-F 8-4 thing
3.Their job isn't the least dangerous, office workers are arguably safer.
4.Other jobs all OT is tracked. Teachers, doesn't matter how much you work.
5.Longevity pay starts at 5 years, for teachers it's 14?
6.Other jobs you are not responsible to 40+ parents, in touch with you, after hours, daily.
7.No stipends for clothing
8. No company car to use

At least I hope you see why holding teachers at step for a year or two was not the same as other unions Statistically, more members of the other unions were at top step so it didn't affect them, they also had longevity pay, shift differentials, o/t to rely on.

But the S.C. presented it like teachers were not playing by the same rules as everyone else. It was very different for teachers to forego those steps than it was for other unions, no recognition of that by the SC

Each job is unique, with it's own schedule, inconveniences and perks. I respect them all, I will fight for them all. I've pointed out the rewards of some vs teachers & why that makes no sense. Office workers start at higher pay, 37.5 hour work week, o/t, longevity pay 3x faster, top pay almost twice as fast.

All other town jobs have similar structures (longevity & step) Can you explain why teachers don't get the same?

Teachers will be out for every last possible cent next time around that's for sure after many bought the we are broke line and watched while their step raise which was budgeted for was spent on new positions.
Good luck next time playing slick willy school board

This town school committee gave Super Steve Foster a glowing review and then threw him under the bus when a teacher was found to be an addict. The hypocrisy s nothing new,

Sam,
I will wait for you to add one bit if evidence to reinforce your assertion. Good lacking searching other patches but AF is a town resident who knows what's up and backs up what he says unlike, well you know....

Sure thing. How is your job search going.

Vinny, you can get a list of registered voters but not taxpayers as far as I know. Or property owners, but that wouldn't include renters.

I'd love to, if I had the foggiest clue what the heck you were talking about.

Steven....

So your answer is being a cop in Westford is dangerous. FF can work far fewer hours but should make more b/c they might have to run into a burning building. Office workers your explanation doesn't make sense. You're stretching so far it makes it look like you have an agenda. Email me & for the contracts for all 4 legalcontractsMA@gmail.com.

Also, reconcile these two statements

"And maybe this isn't Compton, but everyone has to train as if it were, so training begets higher pay." vs. "What I can tell you is that education does not always beget higher pay, you see hung up on that." Teachers receive the most training, by far.

This you finally got right "You seem to have created this analogy between all the public sector workers as if each are equal and demand equal pay or compensation"

So they are not equal, why were the forced to give up steps like the rest of the unions? You agree they aren't paid the same at the same level or pace.

"you get every holiday in creation off (& 'yes' they are unpaid but a day off is a day off & it coincides with your own kid's days off so you save on the babysitter"

Many holidays coincide with vacations. You can't give them credit for both. They can have every holiday off, but now you should remove those days from the vacations you attribute to them. Christmas V has Christmas and New Years. Feb has Presidents Day. But most professionals with a masters degree get this, as far as the rest I don't have kids.

"while the rest of the real world has to find a sitter once a month"

They chose to start a family.

"snow days mean you don't have to shlep to work in a blizzard, you have summer's off which coincide with your own kids' vacation"

I have both of those already b/c I work for myself, & again, no kids. This part is laughable...

"1.They have the most education.” Yes. So what? See Manny Ramirez. 
(We are comparing town unions, you insert professional sports? Makes sense What you don't seem to understand is the education is a mandate. If pay is not at least somewhat commensurate with that requirement people will stop pursuing that job. C'mon you study math, you should understand some of the economic laws.)
“2.They don't work the fewest hours, even if you believe the M-F 8-4 thing “ It’s called s-a-l-a-r-y. Lots of people are salaried. (You clearly missed my point. You (general "you" not "you Steven") can claim they are paid less because they work the fewest hours, they don't. You can claim it's because what they do isn't dangerous, neither is office work. How you explained no degree requirement office workers of deserving higher pay, faster raises, longevity pay 3x faster on God could understand. 
Your overall explanation is that life isn't fair. Your missing the whole point of the questions. There is a reason. It has nothing to do w/fairness. I thought you might have the drive to seek out the answer but it seems you are satisfied with the status quo)

“3.Their job isn't the least dangerous, office workers are arguably safer.” Again, so what. Why are you trying to make teaching into this butch position? Why can’t you just embrace the Mr. Rogers aspect of it? It’s a safe position, who cares if it’s #1, or #8, it’s not as dangerous as being a cop. (Again you go off track because you can't handle the debate. Is it any less dangerous than office work? No. Does office work require a degree? No. Than why do the office workers start at higher pay, get longevity pay 3x faster & hit top pay almost 2x as fast? Let me put it to you as literally as I can. How does that make sense? If you need the contracts just email me, you are dong yourself a disservice by continuing to argue when you haven't read them)
“
4.Other jobs all OT is tracked.” (I should have been more clear with this one. My fault. Meaning all the other jobs, ALL your hours of work are recognized, which is a nice feeling. Teachers often are labeled as having 22 weeks off a year and working 5.25 hours a day.
5.Longevity pay starts at 5 years, for teachers it's 14?” I know of no private sector job where one is tenured. So give and take. (Again lame. all the union jobs I'm discussing people have tenure/seniority. You continuously avoid this question)

6.Other jobs you are not responsible to 40+ parents, in touch with you, after hours, daily.” Um those parents are giving you their most precious commodity. I’d be scared if they WEREN’T calling. (Ok, I didn't realize intentions eliminated the work aspect of it. Another question you ducked. But you seem to get this one. Especially when younger, parents are helicopters & emotionally fragile about how you talk about their little one. , this is something the teacher has to deal with constantly. During the parents free time, whatever hours those may be. The teacher is expected to respond. They are "on call" you could say. You are saying it doesn't count because they parents are well meaning, right)

7.No stipends for clothing”
Really? Are khakis from Wal Mart really that expensive? Try buying 7 days worth of suits, or go to a Carhart store and try not to spend less than $200. (Then why do other unions and admin have stipends? Also, I told you before I am not a teacher. I work for myself. So I have to pay both of those costs that you mentioned actually as I need suits and outdoor gear. That has nothing to do with inconsistencies in town contracts which is what this discussion is about)
“8. No company car to use.” Company car? Are you even reading your own posts? I’m going to tell my wife when she gets home to request a company car. LOL.

Sigh, again, I'm talking @ the town union contracts. What happened to that guy Dweir, at least he understood how to follow logic.

How come if teachers in town are unhappy with the status quo and seek change even of plain it's 'leave, find a new job, don't let the door hit ya' but if those same tea party minded conservatives don't like the political status quo of our country or state the same ('free to leave') is not relevant?
Same difference, easier said than done. The only option is Not love it or leave it but push change. We all agree Westford drastically hurt teacher morale these last couple of years and the reality is those are the people who will be in our schools for the foreseeable future. How's the job search going? About as good as your seeking to move abroad because you are offended by assault weapons bans and background checks, gun registration databases

Good point. Being the tax layer doesn't give you Carte Blanche to just pay and treat people however you feel like. There are consequences.

Especially when someone like me points to the budget to show you where they are hiding money to make it look like they are broke and there goes another P2.5 over ride. You would think people would go after the BOS, SC etc,

The sad truth is teachers are easy targets for many of the reasons I mentioned above. You saw Steven dodge every way of explaining why teachers pay is off. I was hoping he would do better than he did because then I was going to hit him with the custodians contract, but as it was he just can't defend the differences in teachers pay.

The whole thing is just sad, and Westford is building a reputation, not as a money savvy well run machine, but as a Town that is just making stupid decisions. Decisions that are going to drastically alter its status, anger it's citizens, employees and parents, and it's all over relative pocket change.